This one is a much better model of attraction for men than the typical redpill one.
It should be the 'de facto' advice that young men find out about on the internet when they're young.
I remember when I was a teen and I was trying to bruteforce the redpill advice of being a jerk, it obviously failed spectacularly and I didn't understand why, it took me a few months of failure and then a few years of reflection to realize why it was wrong. Well, this article sums it up pretty well.
I just tried reading what women wrote about men online, I kind of binged it on Reddit for a couple days. I don't think I've ever really mentally recovered from that.
Wonderful elaboration of an overly simple and crude concept into something useful and correct. It certainly squares with my long ago experience of such things (Gen X here).
yes lol. To be fair “Crazy” does include a lot of disagreeableness for some men in which it wouldnt for you. So you do have access to mid to low agreeableness woman which I do not. Your optimal woman would probably be somewhere in SD -1 on agreeableness and neuroticism.
They will not tell you their needs, they will try to please you at their own expense, they will burn themselves out giving all their energy to people who have not earned it, they will never challenge you and thus never let you know when you are wrong, and ultimately they will leave you one day without ever even telling you they were unhappy.
Damn, putting so much of what I thought about once being able to get my dick wet into words. Red Pill was definitely important to get out of being a people pleaser in my youth, but it has messed up so much of my mental firmware cause I was a social retard growing up and RP was all I had in terms of info ob social dynamics. RP said to be an asshole so I was, until a chick found out I wasn't all that and the pussy dried up. Made me realize that being an asshole wasn't entirely the point.
Still coming to terms with having to be social. Am naturally super disagreeable because I actually don't care about people 80% of the time. It's not even that I intentionally push them away, but I have realized that I tease way too much for my own amusement. I can imagine that especially women get insecure cause I push too much and don't pull. But tbh I can't really relate to neurotic people cause I just am not that way at all, especially after being outgoing socially and going to the gym regularly, my shame and sensitivity to social pressure are just gone.
Another big thing I have realized for me is that I still have to figure out how to be both higher in status and on the same team as a chick. If I think of myself as an asshole it is easy to see myself as higher status and put her in her place. But it is somehow still inconceivable how to be on her team and higher status. Maybe it is because I don't have that much experience leading in this way. At least in group settings, if we are alone that is my MO.
Thank you for providing this piece and place to write my thoughts out, these aren't really useful for other people but it was helpful putting loose concepts together.
Also asked myself how much I have to change myself to be able to build a social circle and find women that I want to fuck. Should I just do my thing and be more out there? What are the margins of normal behaviour I can navigate in? Every step I take in the right direction I realize how much of the way still lies before me.
That’s an interesting model that I think has some value, but it has problems too.
Firstly I’d agree you don’t have to be an asshole to be attractive. However I’d add that having a ‘don’t give a fuck mindset’ is attractive because it signals power and confidence. So if you’re naturally a nice guy who gives too many fucks about others, adopting some degree of ‘dark triad’ traits is still useful. Too much of that though and you enter the danger zone. You also lose power (eventually) because nobody trusts you or wants to support you.
That points to the main problem in your model, being that the two main traits you’re plotting, power and agreeableness aren’t unrelated variables where you can ramp up one without affecting the other. Men who are too agreeable usually have no power, because their agreeableness precludes them from having any. Likewise the complete psychotic usually won’t have any either, because he’ll be in jail instead.
Other problems I can see with your model are:
1. Its clearly untrue that men and women will only hook up with an 8 or above when it comes to hotness and power respectively. Most men aren’t capable of getting an 8 hot woman, and most women can’t get an 8 powerful man. If your model were true than only 20% of the population would be capable of hooking up period. Both genders make compromises, settling for an acceptable balance of the traits they want.
2. For women, it’s observedly true that it’s generally more important that agreeableness is in the mix as they get older and approach say 30 (at least agreeable to providing comfort and security). This will sometimes manifest in them settling down with someone they’re not highly attracted to but can provide the required comfort. But often being able to provide comfort is only possible when men have more power - in job security, etc. Think for example of an agreeable CEO who can only attract gold diggers. In your model this man has it all - power and agreeableness, yet he struggles to find a woman who’s both hot and genuine.
All this points to there being some underlying truth to ‘alpha fux, beta bux’ you’re not acknowledging. Despite the problems in your model, I can agree with your overall point that you don’t need to be a complete asshole to be attractive. In fact too much makes you unattractive. But most nice guys are so far away from that, that becoming less agreeable will generally increase their attractiveness.
Alpha fux beta bux describes ~70% of the variance in female mating decisions, my model describes ~90%. If you can come up with something simple that is 95%+ i’d love to read a post about it.
That’s not how I’d categorise it. Let’s assume ‘alpha fux beta bux’ describes ~70% as you say, then parts of your model (that you don’t need to be an asshole to be attractive) perhaps add an additional 10% to achieve 80% total if you integrate the two perspectives. But if you don’t integrate them, and instead try to replace their perspective with yours, I think you go backwards to around 50%. Your perspective has some merit as an addition to the more conventional perspective, but by itself as a stand alone prediction of behaviour I think takes you backwards rather than forwards.
The main problem with your model is it implies that the men women want to have sex with when young, and the ones they want to settle down with eventually have equal attractiveness, and only vary in that the latter possess a few more positive traits (agreeableness). If that were true they’d just be chasing the more agreeable types from the outset when younger, when they have the greatest power to attract their ideal. This I presume is what you want to believe, but it’s not reality. They are often totally uninterested in the latter type when younger, because they are different traits often at odds with each other.
Of course you can be both - but pretending you’re already sufficiently attractive/powerful, and all you have to do is be nicer is not helpful to young men not getting dates.
But different things work for different people. If you just have interest in sports, probably your way is the way to go. Like you will find no one among women who just likes sports obviously or close to no one
Like power is a thing but it is only useful on women most introverted men wouldn’t want to date anyways. I can just pay women for sex too. But women that genuinely like your personality you can even get close to if you are a looser
Doesn’t explain the Japanese boy with 6 girlfriends at the same time. I think women just like men they would want to be friends with. Like let’s be honest if we men weren’t that horny most women would be no go territory. I can befriend 10% of people. So imagine this 10% minus the 90% I find unattractive. I remain with 1% of potential mates. She more or less too
Incredible write up, but I noticed in this version of the Hot-Crazy Matrix has the Troon sector (the ones I've saw before didn't have it, or it was cropped out.) Is it sensible to have MtF transexxuals as scoring sub-4 in crazy? Even ignoring the obvious, most trans people you'd encounter online clearly do have the same neurotic and "crazy" tendencies a lot of women have in spades.
You added TTS, now I can enjoy your post’ while I’m doing other tasks. Substack needs to add the option to apply TTS to older post’ if it doesn’t already exist. I’ll binge every post.
This one is a much better model of attraction for men than the typical redpill one.
It should be the 'de facto' advice that young men find out about on the internet when they're young.
I remember when I was a teen and I was trying to bruteforce the redpill advice of being a jerk, it obviously failed spectacularly and I didn't understand why, it took me a few months of failure and then a few years of reflection to realize why it was wrong. Well, this article sums it up pretty well.
I will be saving it for future reference.
I just tried reading what women wrote about men online, I kind of binged it on Reddit for a couple days. I don't think I've ever really mentally recovered from that.
Wonderful elaboration of an overly simple and crude concept into something useful and correct. It certainly squares with my long ago experience of such things (Gen X here).
6th percentile Agreeableness, 0th percentile Neuroticism checking in. I may already have a little too much dickhead lol.
A woman with high Neuroticism would probably drive me insane.
yes lol. To be fair “Crazy” does include a lot of disagreeableness for some men in which it wouldnt for you. So you do have access to mid to low agreeableness woman which I do not. Your optimal woman would probably be somewhere in SD -1 on agreeableness and neuroticism.
Very true when I consider that conversely, I would classify a lot of neurotic behaviour as crazy that most men would probably find acceptable.
Not sure about agreeableness though. I don’t see any big downsides to a woman being more agreeable.
>whats wrong with too agreeable
They will not tell you their needs, they will try to please you at their own expense, they will burn themselves out giving all their energy to people who have not earned it, they will never challenge you and thus never let you know when you are wrong, and ultimately they will leave you one day without ever even telling you they were unhappy.
also they will become neurotic because you are always hurting them unintentionally
you laid out so clearly what I vaguely suspected.
I'm a huge fan!
Damn, putting so much of what I thought about once being able to get my dick wet into words. Red Pill was definitely important to get out of being a people pleaser in my youth, but it has messed up so much of my mental firmware cause I was a social retard growing up and RP was all I had in terms of info ob social dynamics. RP said to be an asshole so I was, until a chick found out I wasn't all that and the pussy dried up. Made me realize that being an asshole wasn't entirely the point.
Still coming to terms with having to be social. Am naturally super disagreeable because I actually don't care about people 80% of the time. It's not even that I intentionally push them away, but I have realized that I tease way too much for my own amusement. I can imagine that especially women get insecure cause I push too much and don't pull. But tbh I can't really relate to neurotic people cause I just am not that way at all, especially after being outgoing socially and going to the gym regularly, my shame and sensitivity to social pressure are just gone.
Another big thing I have realized for me is that I still have to figure out how to be both higher in status and on the same team as a chick. If I think of myself as an asshole it is easy to see myself as higher status and put her in her place. But it is somehow still inconceivable how to be on her team and higher status. Maybe it is because I don't have that much experience leading in this way. At least in group settings, if we are alone that is my MO.
Thank you for providing this piece and place to write my thoughts out, these aren't really useful for other people but it was helpful putting loose concepts together.
Also asked myself how much I have to change myself to be able to build a social circle and find women that I want to fuck. Should I just do my thing and be more out there? What are the margins of normal behaviour I can navigate in? Every step I take in the right direction I realize how much of the way still lies before me.
That’s an interesting model that I think has some value, but it has problems too.
Firstly I’d agree you don’t have to be an asshole to be attractive. However I’d add that having a ‘don’t give a fuck mindset’ is attractive because it signals power and confidence. So if you’re naturally a nice guy who gives too many fucks about others, adopting some degree of ‘dark triad’ traits is still useful. Too much of that though and you enter the danger zone. You also lose power (eventually) because nobody trusts you or wants to support you.
That points to the main problem in your model, being that the two main traits you’re plotting, power and agreeableness aren’t unrelated variables where you can ramp up one without affecting the other. Men who are too agreeable usually have no power, because their agreeableness precludes them from having any. Likewise the complete psychotic usually won’t have any either, because he’ll be in jail instead.
Other problems I can see with your model are:
1. Its clearly untrue that men and women will only hook up with an 8 or above when it comes to hotness and power respectively. Most men aren’t capable of getting an 8 hot woman, and most women can’t get an 8 powerful man. If your model were true than only 20% of the population would be capable of hooking up period. Both genders make compromises, settling for an acceptable balance of the traits they want.
2. For women, it’s observedly true that it’s generally more important that agreeableness is in the mix as they get older and approach say 30 (at least agreeable to providing comfort and security). This will sometimes manifest in them settling down with someone they’re not highly attracted to but can provide the required comfort. But often being able to provide comfort is only possible when men have more power - in job security, etc. Think for example of an agreeable CEO who can only attract gold diggers. In your model this man has it all - power and agreeableness, yet he struggles to find a woman who’s both hot and genuine.
All this points to there being some underlying truth to ‘alpha fux, beta bux’ you’re not acknowledging. Despite the problems in your model, I can agree with your overall point that you don’t need to be a complete asshole to be attractive. In fact too much makes you unattractive. But most nice guys are so far away from that, that becoming less agreeable will generally increase their attractiveness.
Alpha fux beta bux describes ~70% of the variance in female mating decisions, my model describes ~90%. If you can come up with something simple that is 95%+ i’d love to read a post about it.
That’s not how I’d categorise it. Let’s assume ‘alpha fux beta bux’ describes ~70% as you say, then parts of your model (that you don’t need to be an asshole to be attractive) perhaps add an additional 10% to achieve 80% total if you integrate the two perspectives. But if you don’t integrate them, and instead try to replace their perspective with yours, I think you go backwards to around 50%. Your perspective has some merit as an addition to the more conventional perspective, but by itself as a stand alone prediction of behaviour I think takes you backwards rather than forwards.
The main problem with your model is it implies that the men women want to have sex with when young, and the ones they want to settle down with eventually have equal attractiveness, and only vary in that the latter possess a few more positive traits (agreeableness). If that were true they’d just be chasing the more agreeable types from the outset when younger, when they have the greatest power to attract their ideal. This I presume is what you want to believe, but it’s not reality. They are often totally uninterested in the latter type when younger, because they are different traits often at odds with each other.
Of course you can be both - but pretending you’re already sufficiently attractive/powerful, and all you have to do is be nicer is not helpful to young men not getting dates.
I don’t agree. Women aren’t just attracted to power/status, but also to the dark triad traits and lack of agreeableness, on their own.
(Also, there are some men who are very attracted to craziness on its own!)
But different things work for different people. If you just have interest in sports, probably your way is the way to go. Like you will find no one among women who just likes sports obviously or close to no one
Basically I would say fuck everything just be friends with them. Just talk to them if you find topics both sides enjoy it’s a big win
Like power is a thing but it is only useful on women most introverted men wouldn’t want to date anyways. I can just pay women for sex too. But women that genuinely like your personality you can even get close to if you are a looser
Doesn’t explain the Japanese boy with 6 girlfriends at the same time. I think women just like men they would want to be friends with. Like let’s be honest if we men weren’t that horny most women would be no go territory. I can befriend 10% of people. So imagine this 10% minus the 90% I find unattractive. I remain with 1% of potential mates. She more or less too
Incredible write up, but I noticed in this version of the Hot-Crazy Matrix has the Troon sector (the ones I've saw before didn't have it, or it was cropped out.) Is it sensible to have MtF transexxuals as scoring sub-4 in crazy? Even ignoring the obvious, most trans people you'd encounter online clearly do have the same neurotic and "crazy" tendencies a lot of women have in spades.
Excellent model. How does a psychopathic mind operate, btw?
You added TTS, now I can enjoy your post’ while I’m doing other tasks. Substack needs to add the option to apply TTS to older post’ if it doesn’t already exist. I’ll binge every post.
When you have no options you can either raise your value or lower your standards. Most men choose the latter.